Skeptical? Honestly?

Crushed by the evidence
“Evidence. I want evidence that there’s a God.”
“In what form?”
“I don’t know. But I’m not going to put parameters around it.”
Confession: I am skeptical about skeptics. I seriously doubt the doubters. I don’t believe the unbelievers. Not enough evidence for God, you say? Perhaps what you meant to say was, I refuse to even consider the evidence because then I might have to change my cherished, chosen lifestyle.
That’s pretty much my attitude whenever I hear or read a skeptic or atheist claim a lack of evidence. But note that it’s a confession, so I recognize it’s a little unfair. Certainly often enough accurate, but not always. Mea culpa.
But it was again my response when I heard the above exchange on Hinge, “a podcast about doubt, identity, and the search for the real Jesus.” The co-hosts are on opposite sides of the Jesus question…one a Christian pastor, the other a former Christian turned atheist…but they’re also friends. The congeniality of their discussion is very attractive, even though I know if I was hosting you’d likely hear something like, “Seriously? What are you, blind?” I know myself too well.
But I also know that if I as an apologist am going to be about persuasion over contention, a proper attitude and approach is key. Instead of a thunderous hailstorm of assertions that push your opponent into a protective posture, the warm, ocean breezes of congeniality and the fireside glow of mutual respect are much more likely to soften him up for the kill foster a mature and considerate conversational context where each can be heard.
I have issues
So I do recognize that refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of a doubter’s doubts is counterproductive to persuading him to abandon them. Still, the claim that there is no evidence for God seems plainly illegitimate, and so gives rise to my doubts about such a claimant’s doubt. I can respect a skeptic who says they’re not convinced by it, but if they refuse to even engage with the multiple arguments for God’s existence then clearly their skepticism is merely a ruse. And I think I am justified in questioning their integrity.
I also have trust issues with skeptics who can’t or won’t say what evidence would convince them, as in the above exchange. If the evidence that has convinced me doesn’t meet their qualifications, then it seems to me they must have at least an idea of what would. I suspect that most who do have an idea don’t admit it for fear that it will be seen as unreasonable or that it will be shown to be, in essence, no more evidential than what they reject. Or because, if they are honest enough to admit it like the atheist co-host of Hinge did, they know they would likely be skeptical of any imagined evidence. [I will be addressing the less humble admission of a popular internet atheist in my next post.]
We all have filters
What I have come to realize is that what we acknowledge as true when looking outside ourselves is shaped to a large extent by what we acknowledge is true when we look inside ourselves. And this goes for both believers and nonbelievers. A little introspection can save us from misinterpreting what our “outrospection” detects, because all that we perceive is seen through multiple emotional, relational, and presuppositional filters.
And we have to be willing to be honest with ourselves if we want to be seen by others as honest. So the maxim is true in religious and existential considerations as well as in everyday life: Honesty is the best policy.
I agree with the fact that we cannot just attack each other to prove our point. If someone believes, they cannot simply say that those who don’t are wrong and it’s ridiculous that they choose to think that way. Same goes for the opposition. If you lack belief, you cannot hurl insults at people for believing in “fairytales” or being “brainwashed”. I wrote a blog post recently that speaks of militant atheism vs militant Christianity. Both use the wrong approach. I have found that a lot of atheists do not just want to hold on to their lifestyles and claim unbelief as their reason, but rather had a strong Christian faith at some point and have lost it. They, like me, fought hard to hold on to it, prayed and cried until their eyes hurt, but were taken in a different direction the deeper they dug. We tried to believe it all and we defended it as long as we could. But, some atheists were never believers and just refuse to see the other side. I agree that that’s not a reasonable position to take if you are unwilling to even listen to the other side. Now, speaking as a former Christian, I have had people still in the faith trying to convince me I’m wrong and they are right. I’ve been told I have lost my way. I disagree. I feel like truth, not deceit, has led me from that way of life. I do now require proof. Not proof of God. I still believe in God. I am a deist now. I still believe in God, just not the God of the Bible. That’s where I need to be shown proof that the stories within the Bible are true without using the Bible as the source of evidence. Just like if I asked you to prove that your blog posts are true, you cannot use your blog posts as proof that they are. Outside evidence would be required to prove it.
All that being said, I do agree that it takes an awful lot of faith to deny God’s existence. In my opinion (I cannot speak for anyone else) I see design and purpose all around. I see a beautiful creation which therefore requires a creator. What I don’t see is the God exclusive to the Bible. Belief in the God of the Bible requires faith based solely on that book. Belief in God simply requires our eyes to be open.
Since WordPress won’t link to my page directly after I changed my site’s address, I will post a link to it here if anyone is interested:
http://www.learningwhogodisandwhoheisnot.wordpress.com
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Thank you for reading and commenting, sir. I’m glad that your doubts about the truth of Christianity didn’t cloud your perception of the reality of a creator. But if you’re looking for “proof” that the Bible is a reliable testimony to the real Jesus, then likely nothing will ever satisfy you. But there are excellent reasons and arguments that make it highly probable that we can rely on its authenticity and believe that Jesus is God and really rose from the dead.
I refer you to William Lane Craig’s work here: https://www.reasonablefaith.org and that of Mike Licona here: https://www.risenjesus.com for excellent resources on the reliability of the historical documents and the resurrection. Gary Habermas is an expert on the resurrection: http://garyhabermas.com.
Belief in the Christian God does depend on what is revealed in the Bible, but we have more than just the Bible commending itself to us. We have supporting historical, archeological, bibliographical, and literary evidence to give us confidence that we can put our faith in the God revealed there.
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I agree that archaeology can corroborate some of the stories in the Bible such as the existence of King David or the Pharaoh Rameses II. However, some stories being true doesn’t mean all are true. Evidence for some doesn’t equate to evidence for all. Some of the verifiable stories are the ones that are historical and believable, but the supernatural ones cannot be verified. Again, faith is required.
I will have to respectfully disagree that it is “highly probable” that Jesus is God and rose from the dead. Firstly, the Bible itself refutes that assertion in several places. For example, in John 14:24 Jesus says, “…these words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” Now either Jesus, as God, didn’t realize he was God and thought he heard it from his father or he knows that he is below God, not equal to him. He is submissive and subservient to God in every way and the Bible itself confirms this. Many use John 10:30 “I and the Father are one” as proof Jesus was God, but that isn’t what that verse means at all. It has been taken out of context and used to force that belief time and time again. To believe that verse means Jesus is God is to ignore all the other verses where he confirms he is not. See Mathew 11:25-26, Luke 22:42, John 12:27-30, Mark 16:19, John 14:28, and John 17:3. Sorry these are a little out of order. You can read more of my views on this subject in my blog post from a couple of years ago: https://learningwhogodisandwhoheisnot.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/is-jesus-god-as-the-father-is-god-is-the-holy-spirit-also-god-is-the-trinity-real-mainstream-christianity-says-yes-the-bible-says-no/
I have not read the sources you have listed. I will have to check them out before commenting on them. But I could refer you to Bart Ehrman’s work (there are too many to list, but his ” Misquoting Jesus” is a good place to start) or Thomas Paine’s “The Age of Reason.” These works may open your mind to new ideas or new evidence you may not have been aware of.
I am not here to argue or to attack, just to have an open dialogue, just as I write my blog to list my opinions and observations, not to judge or to indoctrinate. So keep writing and keep studying. We should all encourage each other to do that. Ignorance is no basis for discussion. You need to have some knowledge of a subject before a sincere debate can be had. Take care.
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I’m familiar with Bart Ehrman though I haven’t read his work myself. But Craig, Licona, and Habermas have had much to say to refute his conclusions.
None of those verses you cited “confirm” that Jesus is not God. God as a Trinity has 3 persons and though each is equal to the other in being, they have different roles. So the second person of the Trinity can talk to the first person and address him as Father without compromising his equality in being. Here’s a good overview of the Trinity from Craig’s Defenders class: Doctrine of God – The Trinity Part 1 where he talks about why the New Testament authors didn’t just come out and say, “Jesus is God.” And here’s a short video clip from former Muslim Nabeel Qureshi on the Trinity.
But I don’t see why you even put any stock in the support you suppose those verses give to your belief that Jesus is and was not God if you dismiss a good bit of what the New Testament records. Why are those verses reliable but others are not? Simply because they record miraculous events? Yes, “faith is required” to consider the miracle accounts as legit, but faith is also required to accept any hypothesis to explain the evidence for the resurrection. And if God exists, miracles are possible so should not be summarily dismissed as unlikely simply because we can’t “prove” them. Neither can we prove that the disciples hallucinated or stole the body or any one of the other rival hypotheses.
I hope you will look at the references I cited, and I will read your Trinity post. I appreciate your respectful tone. It does go a long way towards productive discussion, doesn’t it?
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I think I can see where this is headed. I think about this one way and you another. This is going to be one of those “agree to disagree” things and that’s okay. The idea of the trinity is something I didn’t agree with, even as a Christian. Evidence I have seen points to the council of Nicaea as the origin, though that is debatable. It’s not supported by the Bible, unless verses are taken out of context and used to support an agenda. (my opinion of course) The verses I listed prove my point if you reject the doctrine of the trinity. If you subscribe to that doctrine, then two parts of one being (say Jesus and his father) can have a conversation with each other and that might make sense to you. To others, it seems a little silly. If you were walking and talking with Jesus and he started praying to his father, you might wonder what he was doing if you believed he was God himself. I would. I would say, “um, Jesus, you know you’re talking to yourself right now, right?” I mean, either his followers didn’t believe he was God or they had no issue with him praying to himself.
I quoted those specific verses because they pertained to our conversation, not because I think they are reliable but others are not. I no longer trust any of it. There are many errors or contradictions and I have written about some of those in a few of my more recent posts. Even one error makes the idea of a “God-breathed” Bible fall apart. Bart Ehrman goes into great detail about these things but I didn’t take his word for it. I took what he said and researched to find the evidence for or against his claims from multiple sources, easily found on the internet or at a local library. If someone refutes his work by quoting the Bible as evidence against it, then they are missing the point, He talks, not just about the content, but about the history of the physical text. He shows evidence of tampering, either by scribes or by those in power, which shows man has left his fingerprints all over the Bible. But, again, I never take anyone’s word for anything. That includes people in the Bible from thousands of years ago. They are words, just like my words. It’s hearsay when you are not an eyewitness, and hearsay from thousands of years ago is hard to take as truth just because someone tells you to.
Just like unbelievers need to be open to the ideas that believers have in order to form an educated opinion, believers need to see why unbelievers or skeptics question things. Evidence is one thing. Faith is another. Evidence is irrefutable. Faith comes down to preference based on opinions. Each side will either stick to their guns like I once did as a believer or dig deeper into our doubts and say maybe the other side had skeptics for a legitimate reason.
But yes, being respectful is the only way to go about life in any situation. Attacking only pushes people away. It’s hard to convince anyone of anything when they turn and walk away, never to look back.
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I suspect that most if not all debates between bloggers on matters of faith end up being either contentious “one-uppers” or agreeing to disagree. It’s very difficult to persuade another who is certain and passionate enough about his or her view to go to the trouble of writing a blog about it. I think the best we can hope for is to persuade the less convinced reader. And the best way we do that is in putting our efforts into expressing our views in the posts we write.
So I’ll not waste your time nor mine by encouraging a back-and-forth here. I just want to make one more important point regarding what you said above. Some evidence may be “irrefutable” in the sense that everyone, or almost everyone, would agree to its interpretation. The folks entering the theater right now are all wet, so it’s obviously raining outside. But when it comes to historical evidence, much if not most of it is open to interpretation. The facts are what they are but two people can look at the same ones and conclude differently.
And that was my point in this post. Just as everyone has access to the facts about the reality of the world around us, and the wonder of the being that IS us, some conclude that it all happened by chance and others see the hand of a creator. And that is largely a result of the different filters we see through.
I hope we can at least “agree to agree” on that. 🙂
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Yes I think we can both agree on that. Like I’ve said, I look at the world and see a creator simply based on observation. It seems implausible to think everything began by chance and runs with extreme precision by chance now. But I don’t see the biblical story the same way because it lacks the same observational evidence. It requires faith based on someone else’s writings, not my own eyewitness experiences. I did look at your links to websites from your other comments and they all share a common theme. They base all of their beliefs on the biblical account and use it to defend their position. That’s fine if they choose to do so. I just disagree with that method. I did watch the debate between Mike Licona and Bart Ehrman. Very entertaining and informational (and not just because Bart won 😊)
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I would really like to let this go but, unless I’m misunderstanding you, it seems to me you are unfairly invalidating the “method” of basing “beliefs on the biblical account.” You seem to be dismissing the biblical documents simply because they are written by Christians and contain reports of miracles. Or that you believe they are using the Bible’s claim to be Scripture to establish it as reliable.
The biblical documents are our primary sources for the teaching and events surrounding Jesus, so of course they’re going to base their beliefs on it. But they use valid historical methods for determining the reliability of any ancient document, just like Ehrman does, in concluding that they are well-attested for believability. Those methods include integrating corroborating evidence from extra-biblical sources, which is considerable.
So I’m confused as to what you object to in the work of apologists like WLC and Licona.
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I object to the Bible as a reliable source for one reason mainly. The infallibility defense of it. It is said to supposedly be God breathed and perfect. However, it is full of known errors, rendering it imperfect. Which is fine for texts known to be man-made, but when the claim is that it is perfect and inspired by God, that is an issue. Any historical story or historical figure written about can have variations in the accounts describing them. But if you are going to claim a perfect Bible inspired by a perfect God, then it had better be error-free which it is not. I would have no objections to the types of variations within the Bible if the claim was that it was man’s interpretations of what may or may not have happened. But that’s not the claim Christians have regarding the sacred texts is it? A perfect and inerrant book would be just that…yet it is not. Extra-biblical accounts do mention Jesus and no rational person would deny his existence. However no extra-biblical sources claim what the Bible does about him. So if the Bible is the only source from antiquity claiming his divinity and the miracles he performed and is said to be the inerrant word of God, it had better be inerrant and it is far from that. That is my objection to it, not because Christians wrote it and because it speaks of miracles. It’s because it claims to come from God and is his perfect word with no errors. These are claims it cannot back up.
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Whether or not the Bible is inerrant does not negate its believability as a reliable account of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. I dispute your claim that it “is full of known errors,” but even if there are some, that’s completely in line with other ancient historical documents that are considered reliable. If you are going to reject it simply because Christians (and not the Bible itself) claim that it is inerrant, then you would need to dismiss as unreliable every historical document and everything we know about ancient history.
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Ancient history regarding other matters don’t impact one’s life like stories of God do so I am not concerned whether they are true or not. That’s for historians to decide whether that’s important or not. Other ancient stories don’t have “eternal consequences”, do they? Other ancient texts don’t claim to be “God-breathed” do they? I don’t agree with your statement that in the Bible itself, it doesn’t claim to be inerrant because it does. In 2 Timothy 3:16 the Bible, not simply Christians, says “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” So we see here that scripture comes from God, correct? Then in Matthew 5:48 we see “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” So if God is perfect, as stated in the Bible and all scripture is breathed from God, as stated in the Bible, then the words should be perfect. Otherwise you are telling me that God is imperfect and I don’t think that is what you are claiming. If all scripture comes from a perfect and therefore inerrant God (perfect meaning he doesn’t make errors which is where we get the word inerrant from) then everything should be perfect and changes would not be seen in the texts over the years. Yet we do see many changes. The changes are obviously man-made for man’s purposes, but that doesn’t excuse them. In Deuteronomy 4:2 we are told “Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.” In the Bible we are told not to add to nor take away from scripture, but historical evidence shows we have done just that. Is a perfect God okay with allowing words that shape the lives of countless billions of people to be changed? I would suggest that the answer is no. Did God inspire these changes? Because we are told the Bible authors were inspired. Did God change his mind? If God inspired a perfect Bible then no changes would be necessary, would they? And the Bible also says God doesn’t change his mind in Numbers 23:19 “God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.” I think if we are to believe that, then we would have to assume that he didn’t authorize any changes, no matter how small and insignificant they may seem to us.
Yes, this book of stories known as the Bible is in line with other ancient texts. However, other ancient texts don’t make the claims that the Bible makes about the divine realm and God here on earth and that is why there is so much scrutiny. That is why people like Bart Ehrman and others study and analyze like they do and why people like myself reject it as divine. As I have shown, the Bible makes the claim that the scriptures are “God-breathed” not simply Christians as you have claimed . The Bible makes the claim that God is perfect, not simply Christians unless they themselves are quoting from the Bible. If the Bible says God is perfect and it also says that he breathed those words, then the words had better be perfect. Otherwise, either God is imperfect or the Bible was never God-breathed to begin with.
You don’t have to believe that the Bible is full of errors to make it true. It is true regardless. History has proven that, and Christians as a result of church teaching, have rejected it.
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“Inerrant” is not the same as “inspired” or God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 does not claim that the Bible is inerrant, only that God inspired the writings and does not preclude the possibility that he allowed for some minor mistakes. He did not dictate the documents but instead sovereignly selected specific men and so worked in their lives that he knew they would write what he wanted to be written.
But, again, I do believe it is inerrant in what it teaches and that your claim that it is full of errors is false, as well as that there have been many changes made in the text over the years. I don’t believe that can be established.
There are good reasons to believe that what the gospels record about Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection are true, but you are rejecting him because you don’t believe that every word in them is completely factual. That would be like refusing a life-saving medication because the accompanying information sheet lists a possible side effect that has been shown to be false.
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Those are your opinions and you are certainly entitled to them. I disagree with them but will leave it be. I could keep going and showing where and how I think you are wrong but I see you are just going to deny my claims anyway. No point doing that nonstop. I will just continue my own blog posts on my site and you are welcome to read my thoughts there or you can ignore the evidence I present there as well. Take care.
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